Saturday, January 26, 2008

Pre-Wrath Problems

There are a number of problems with the "pre-wrath" position, and I won't go into all of them here, but let's start with this: DISOBEDIENCE

Pre-wrath believers willfully disobey the Lord's command to:
(Luke 21:36)
pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass

That's a command, not an optional buffett table item. See, pre-wrath believers cannot pray what the Lord commands them to, because quite simply, they believe that they are going through at least HALF of the things that are going to come to pass. In fact, they think that the Holy Spirit's command to pray for escape is "escapist" somehow it's whimping out. For us who take the Lord's commands seriously and at face value, we are watching TODAY (as commanded), we are praying that we will be counted worthy to ESCAPE ALL (as commanded), pre-wrath believers are not, how could they? It goes against everything they stand on? That's willful disobedience. Instead of standing on the Word of God, they universally stand on the gospel according to Dave Mcpherson, Dave who? They love to quote so called "christian scholars" instead of the Holy Spirit. How much clearer could the bible be:

Rev 4-A door open in heaven
Rev 5-Redeemed/rewarded men in heaven
Rev 6-The wrath of God is poured out

Luke 21:36 talks about ESCAPE FROM ALL these things
Rev 3:10 talks about being kept from the hour of trial

70 weeks are declared for the Jewish people, the church was'nt around for the first 69 weeks, why would we be around for the 70th week?

The purpose of the 70th week is clearly spelled out:

Seventy weeks (70 x 7) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression
to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy

thy people? thy holy city? He was talking to Daniel, a Jew...What's the church's holy city? reconciliation for iniquity? Uhhh, Jesus has that one covered for Christian believers....

You have to be willfully in disobedience to not obey the Lord's command to pray for escape, wake up.....

38 comments:

Alan Kurschner said...

Brother D,

Do you realize that there is an inherent contradiction in your argument?

Since pretribs affirm that the Olivet Discourse applies to Jews not the church, then how can you obey a command in Luke 21 that does not apply to you?

Unless you are willing to admit that Luke 21 does indeed apply to the church to which your pretribulationism says it does not.

PWTribune said...

D,

Don't skip reading my words like you have in the past. I won't even quote a "scholar." I'll quote Jesus for you.

Luke 21:34-36
Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and THAT DAY will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.

We clearly see Jesus say, “That day,” and He warns us to not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life so that THAT DAY will not come on us suddenly like a trap. D, what is “that day?” What DAY was Jesus just talking about? The DAY that will take place AFTER the sign in the sun, moon and stars. (Luke 21:25)

So we are to pray that we will “have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place.” If the pre-trib rapture is a prophesied event that is bound to take place why would we need to pray for a pre-trib rapture to help us escape? And why would Jesus clearly tell us that His coming would take place after the sign in the sun, moon and stars and then CONTRADICT HIS OWN WORDS by then saying that we should pray to be a part of a different coming (that He didn't even mention!) so that we could escape the day He just said that He would come?!

PWTribune said...

D said, "thy people? thy holy city? He was talking to Daniel, a Jew..."

Who received the 10 commandments? The Jews. Who was the new covenant given to? The Jews. But according to your interpretation the 10 commandments and the new covenant have nothing to do with us because they were given to the Jews. Very consistent, D.

Brother D said...

Do you realize that there is an inherent contradiction in your argument?

No, I see no contradiction. I could care less what other pretribbers argue Luke 21:36 means, I can read it for myself. It says to pray for an escape, you don't, why not?

Brother D said...

PWtribune, i don't even know who you are, ignore your words? show me your last post to my blog?

What was that day? seems prety clear to me, it was ESCAPE DAY? how much more obvious could it be?

Brother D said...

pwtribune, you are a master of scriptural aerobics, the new covenant was given to the Jews, which is why they all now obey the new testament and call themselves christians? Jesus was a Jew, christians worship Him as God, does that mean we are Jews? Your point is as clear as mud...

Alan Kurschner said...

Brother D.

Why are you fixated on this one command in Luke 21? Are you aware that there are 12 other commands in Luke 21! And there are 27 commands in Matthew 24-25.

And since I assume that you believe that Luke 21 and Matthew 24-25 apply to the church, are you obeying all those commands?

Btw, you are in the Carlsbad California area, correct?

Brother D said...

CONTRADICT HIS OWN WORDS by then saying that we should pray to be a part of a different coming (that He didn't even mention!) so that we could escape the day He just said that He would come?!

One "coming" happens in the air, the other on the earth....You are disobedient if you are not praying to escape ALL that's about to happen, why?

Alan Kurschner said...

Brother D.

Are you obeying Jesus' command in Matthew 24:15 to "understand" regarding the abomination of desolation?

Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),” - Matt 24:15

If you are consistent then you should be.

Brother D said...

The evidence is overwhelming, Rev 4 door open, rev 5 redeemed men in heaven, rev 6 the wrath of God, luke 21-command to pray to escape ALL thats about to happen, the examples of Lot and Noah, Rev 3:10 pray to be kept (escape) from the hour of trial.

MATTHEW 9:29 NKJ
29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."

Are you praying to escape all that's about to happen or not? You are not, why not, why are you disobeying? You refuse to answer the question, because you rebel against the command of God, stop evading and answer the question why you disobey...

Alan Kurschner said...

Brother D.

Will you obey Jesus' command to recognize that his return is near after the abomination of desolation?

“so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.” - Matt 24:33

Alan Kurschner said...

Brother D,

A sign of a failed argument is when someone avoids interacting with objections.

I am taking it that you do not have an answer.

I hope you can see beyond your Tradition one day.

Thanks.

Brother D said...

The command to recognize? That smells of your large intestines sir...LOL Talk to me about the escape we are commanded to pray for, you don't seem to like that command very much do you?

Brother D said...

Look, let's keep this simple, we are told to pray to ESCAPE ALL thats about to happen, why do you refuse to do this?

Brother D said...

"A sign of a failed argument is when someone avoids interacting with objections.

I am taking it that you do not have an answer."

avoid interacting with objections? PLEASE show me where you answer my objection that you fail to pray for ESCAPING ALL? I am taking it that you do not have an answer. The prewrath argument crashes and burns on Rev 4,5,6, luke 21:36 and Rev 3:10, especially Luke 21:36 which is why I pin prewrathers on it and they all, bar none crash and burn on it.

PWTribune said...

Dave, Dave, Dave. I'll say it again. Why would we have to pray to escape by way of the pre-trib rapture? It's got to be one of the silliest arguments I've heard. If the pre-trib rapture is a fact, and if you are a Christian, WHY would you have to pray for something to happen that you KNOW is going to happen for you as a Christian?

Don't you believe that God told you that you WILL escape? Are you a Christian? Is pre-trib a fact? What's to pray about?

PWTribune said...

It sounds to me like you doubt God. I would think a confident believer would be THANKING God for the PROMISE of escape (if there was one).

Brother D said...

I doubt God? No, I DO THANK GOD for the promise of escape. You refuse to pray for escape, even when the Lord commands you to, WHY?

Brother D said...

PWTRIBUNE, PWTRIBUNE, PWTRIBUNE, BECAUSE THE LORD COMMANDED US TO PRAY FOR ESCAPE...how much clearer could it be? He commanded it, we do it, I don't see where the confusion is?

Brother D said...

pwtribune, I guess I did'nt answer all of your question, the pre-trib rapture is a fact, what's NOT a fact is whether or not you will qualify for it, read the whole verse...pray that you may BE COUNTED WORTHY....only a few will be saved sir, Matt 7:14, only a few will make it out in the rapture, you refuse to pray what the Lord commanded you to, do you think you'll be counted worthy, we already know you refuse to obey one command, how many others are there? The fact is, you DO NOT do what the Lord commanded you to? Why Not? You and other pre-wrathers spend billions of keystrokes spouting everything but the answer to that question, WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER/OBEY THAT COMMAND, answer specifically please and stop evading....

PWTribune said...

You keep throwing accusations at everyone that doesn't believe in a pre-trib rapture. You claim to know what others pray even though you have never met them. Tell me, Dave, how do you know what I do and do not pray? You know my heart and and the things that take place there when I'm with God? The conclusions you come to are very irrational.

And a better and more reliable translation would be the NASB which says, "Pray that you will have the strength to escape..."

But the main issue here seems to be why you judge others when you don't know a thing about them. Can you explain this?

Brother D said...

Dearest PWtribune, great job once again, evading the question, answer the question, are you praying to escape ALL that's about to happen? YES or NO? stop evading, the pre-wrath position is in direct conflict with this command to pray for escaping ALL, now answer the question...if you are being obedient and praying to escape ALL, then your pre-wrath position is sunk, if you are not praying to escape all, you are being disobedient to the Word of God, willfully because you believe in a pre-wrath rapture that's more recent than my daughters last diaper change. Why do you refuse to answer the simple question, stop evading PW ANSWER!

Brother D said...

PW, please see my latest post regarding your (and many other PWrs) argument technique.

1. you refuse to answer my questions
2. you then ask me questions while still refusing to answer mine
3. you claim victory after never having answered my questions.

Look, the PW position can be skinned 6 ways from sunday, but I choose not to expand the argument since I can pin you down right here, on Luke 21:36. It does'nt matter how you answer my question, either way your PW sinks. Stop asking me questions and answer my simple yes or no question. Are you praying to escape all as you have been commanded to in Luke 21:36, yes or no? no more evading, no more counter questions, yes or no?

Brother D said...

PWtribune in regards to your translation, it's not accurate, let's look at the greek shall we?

Strong's number
2661. kataxioo (kat-ax-ee-o'-o)
From kata and axioo; to deem entirely deserving -- (ac-)count worthy.

the "have the strength" translation just does'nt cut it. Now answer the million dollar question that sinks the PW ship, are you praying to escape all, yes or no :-)

PWTribune said...

It doesn't matter HOW I answer the question. If I say, "No, I haven't prayed that," it only shows that I haven't prayed that specific prayer. If I say, "Yes, I've prayed that prayer," it doesn't erase the fact that we WILL go through the great tribulation. I'm not sure why you cannot understand that one can be in the proximity of an event but still escape the troubles that are linked to that event due to God protecting them. It's mind boggling how you falsely answer question presented to you, but hammer on me for not answering a question that, in it self, and as usual, is flawed from the beginning!

But just as you were in the times you visited my blog, you've shown once more that once you get something in your head you cannot see anything else no matter how flawed your thoughts are. It's kind of weird.

I think I will try to avoid debates with those that can't. There are a bunch of good hearted pre-tribbers elsewhere that I have contact with that, though we will always disagree, they understand how to hash things out together, and they are not so stubborn with one-tracked minds that lack the ability to reason.

Sorry,
Dave

Grand Pa Sam said...

Brother D,
You said, "That smells of your large intestines sir...LOL" Are you meaning this in a literal sense? Or, what exactly does this statement mean. Is it suppose to be funny? Or, is it a reference to the odors of flatulence? Why are you mixing body odor with Christian discourse. Do you find foul odor somewhat comical? Some people expel bad gas because of what they eat like beans or certain vegetables. Those are said to have "veggie tails" or "A-spare-a-gas". But, gas is natural even though its foul and embarassing.

Grand Pa Sam said...

Brother D,
And, you mentioned something about "escaping". Well this reminds me of something. When our neighbor Clara comes and visits my wife, I really hate it. Why? Well, the lady is a bit large, like my prize hog, Fred. And, it never fails that on occasion she lets gas escape as you said. Now, you don't hear anything, but you can surely smell it. Now, my wife Betsy says I'm crazy and that its all in my head. I tell her, yes indeed it is all in my head because the stench rises up my nostrils. Look, I've worked around pigs all my life and I can stand almost any smell, but this poor soul has some smelly gas, God bless her soul.

cassie said...

Grand Pa Sam,
Brother D wasn't discussing escaping gas. He was talking about escaping the tribulation when the rapture happens first.

Cassie

Grand Pa Sam said...

Cassie,
Are you callin me a liar? Brother D said he was smellin another man's large intestine. Now, why would he say such a thing? And, he thought it was funny too. And you said something about the rapture happenin before the tribulation period. Hogwash, I have been readin my Good Book for over 65 years and nowhere does it teach that nonsense. You best tell Brother D to read his Bible more carefully and to stop smelling men's intestines.

PWTribune said...

This flatulent discussion is the best discussion that has ever taken place here! Maybe I'll have to come back and join in more. I've got a lot to share. :)

cassie said...

Grand Pa Sam,
Look you old fart...forget it!

Grand Pa Sam said...

Who you callin old? That is no way to address your elders young lady. Now, I asked Brother D to explain his self and then you butted in. This is a place for men, so you best git. Go on, git.

Brother D said...

Pwtribune, see the problem is, the command is very specific, watch constantly, and pray to escape ALL. You know as well as I do, that the answer to the questions introduced in Luke 21:36 sink the pre-wrath position, which is why you refuse to answer the question. I guess I'm not "good hearted" because I pin pre-wrathers down on this question and they have no answer for it. Do you realize that IF the pre-trib position is correct, you are stealing people's HOPE from them? That's no trivial matter? I'd rather you consider me an enemy and see the truth than be my friend and destroy men's hope through false doctrine.

Brother D said...

Grand pa sam, you are my kind of man LOL. Yea, the large intestine pretty much only produces foul smelling things :-). Here's the thing, I am open to the truth, I've read the pre-wrath position, I think I understand it, I just don't buy it. Luke 21:36 causes some big problems for the pre-wrath position, if it did'nt, I'd move on over to Rev 6 and say, the wrath of God, not satan, God is smack dab, right there, there's no Greek, Hebrew, Russian, Ethiopian interpretation of the Good book that can change the plain reading of it. So, in a sense, I am a "pre-wrather" I see the wrath of God in Rev 6, I believe it's before that. I don't even need to go there though since there's so much bang for the pre-trib buck in Luke 21:36. I think we will find out VERY soon brother, not much more waiting to do, if I'm wrong, both myself and many other "pre-tribbers" do not have our faith in "the rapture" our faith is in the Son of God, Jesus Christ, so guess what, we'd then be "mid-tribbers" if that failed, we'd be "post-tribbers." We have to call things as we see them according to the measure of faith the good Lord has given us. Today, this close to the end, I believe I understand things better than I ever have before. WE'll find out soon brother, watch out for that intestinal track IT'S A ROUGH PLACE :-) Grace and Peace~brother D

Brother D said...

Pwtribune, it's not the fact that you have overlooked praying that prayer, it's a matter of fact that because you are a pre-wrath believer, you WILL NOT pray that prayer even though you and I have dragged it though the mud. Why would you, a pre-wrath believer, pray to escape ALL, when you do NOT believe we will "escape all." The Lord promises something is possible and tells us to pray for it, the pre-wrath position negates the idea that "escape ALL" is possible, does'nt it? Rev 6 IS the wrath of God, I won't even debate that with you, do you have any idea just how devastation the seals being opened are going to be? Hitler killed 6 million, the opening of the seals equates to about 2 BILLION people dying. The Lord would have us escape that, his wrath. I am a soldier by trade, I will give my life willingly for the Lord however He wants me to lay it down, but when He specifically promises an escape, COME ON. The enemy comes to kill, steal and destroy, the pre-wrath position STEALS HOPE from men. Rev 4, door open in heaven, Rev 5 REDEEMED MEN IN HEAVEN, Rev 6 The wrath of God, Luke 21:36, Rev 3:10, the examples of Lot and Naoh. What more does the Lord have to do? If I never saw Luke 21:36, Rev 4,5,6 would be more than enough to convince me STILL of a pre-trib rapture. Then there are guys like Dave McPherson running around, there's a guy who lacks ANY fruit of the Spirit. He's spent 30 years hating men, He's the poster child for pre-wrath. And of course I love the fact that Dave and co. call out pre-trib as being a "recent" belief. LOL, HOW OLD IS PRE-WRATH? anyhow, I'll never convince you, but I ask you to pray over what you and I have discussed. Time is too short for endless babble. A man must be firmly convinced of what he believes, we'll stand or fall alone on it, there will be no pastor, no priest, no relgious gurus around to answer for us the day we give an account of our lives to the Lord. My fingers are tired, :-) Grace and Peace~D

Brother D said...

Grand pa sam, the answer to your question is this: I was employing something known as metaphor, thanks for posting.

Grand Pa Sam said...
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Brother D said...
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