Moving

My family is in the process of moving across the country, starting today I won't be able to respond to comments until all the dust settles, my posts will continue as inspiration strikes. Grace and Peace

More Pre-Wrath Disobedience

There are many ways the the pre-wrath (PW) position falls apart, but since almost all of the pre-wrath advocates I've had the pleasure of debating like to evade I have found it most beneficial to pin them down in one place and squeeze the life out of their arguments there. Luke 21:36 is the weapon of choice, the sword of the Spirit that demolishes the PW position in one stab. There are two points of willfull disobedience exposed by this one passage of scripture, both are equally damning to the PW position. First, let's look at this weapon:

Luke 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may be counted worthy/prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Now, the first place PW advocates disobey: "But watch ye at every season"
watch at EVERY SEASON......for what? For the escape, it follows within the SAME SENTENCE. Why would pre-wrathers be watching at EVERY SEASON when they seem to think that "the escape" does'nt come until mid-tribulation? If they say they are watching for the escape at every season they sink their own PW ship, if they are not "watching at every season" they are willfully disobedient.

The second place they disobey: making supplication, that ye may be counted worthy/prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass. A pre-wrath advocate cannot both pray to "escape all" and believe in a "pre-wrath" rapture, since they directly conflict. Either the Holy Spirit is insane, or the pre-wrath doctrine is false.

So, pre-wrathers neither "watch at every season" (for the escape) nor do they pray to "escape all." That's two points of disobedience in one verse of scripture. Why do I need to employ any other weapons to sink their ship? Luke 21:36 is a nuclear tipped torpedo for the PW position. To date, not one, ZERO pre-wrath advocates have been able to circumevent the devastation this one scripture does to their position. Since they have no answer to this glaring problem, instead, they evade, ask counter questions relating to everything BUT why they fail to obey, they quote their hero(Dave Mcpherson). Once they get tired of failing to answer why they disobey the commands in Luke 21:36, they then claim victory and walk away. They accuse me of evading them, when they never answer my question: Why do you fail to obey the commands (2 of them) in Luke 21:36? They have no answer.

How can I judge people I've never met? By definition, the PW position is incompatible with the commands of Luke 21:36. If you adhere to one, you must dismiss the other. It's just that simple. There is so much more that supports the pre-trib position, but why expand the argument when I can check and mate them with one verse?

The Pre-wrath argument structure

1. Most importantly-DO NOT ANSWER why they refuse to pray for the escape in Luke 21:36

2. Hem, haw, ask counter questions, in general lay out why they believe the rapture will be mid-trib WITHOUT ANSWERING question number 1-why they refuse to obey the command in Luke 21:36

3. Accuse the pre-trib believer for not aswering their questions, and claim victory when they NEVER BOTHER to answer why they disobey the Lord's command in Luke 21:36, PRAY TO BE COUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE.

In conclusion, they have no answer, if they do obey the command in Luke 21:36 they admit that there is an escape possible before the wrath of God falls in Rev 6, if they dance around it, they admit they have no answer for it and they are in willful disobedience. PROVE ME WRONG, you can't.....

Pre-wrathers, why do you disobey?

Luke 21:36 commands you to pray for escape from ALL that's about to happen, why do you refuse to obey this command? To this day NOT ONE, pre-wrath believer has answered, not one, they dance, they hem, they haw, they ask me counter questions, but they WILL NOT ANSWER because they cannot, their position is fatally flawed. They disobey because their opinion rates higher than the command of God. I challenge any prewrather out there to answer DIRECTLY this question, you can't...you are exposed, please prove me wrong without evading, answer the question or don't post at all.

More Fatal Flaws in the "prewrath" tribulation view

I find it amusing that "prewrath" believers often accuse the pretib position as being one that is new. Uh, perhaps they should look in the mirror for a second (or years)? how old is the "prewrath" belief? Dave Mcp and his followers DONT want to talk about that do they?

Introduction: Within the last few years a new view of the timing of the Rapture has become popular. This modern view, called the Pre-Wrath View, has been taught by Robert Van Kampen in the 1970's and by Marvin Rosenthal in the early 1990s. This view correctly states that the Rapture of believers, of this present Church Age, will occur before God pours His wrath upon the earth in the Tribulation.
Interestingly, all the views of the timing of the Rapture teach the same biblical truth. Each view accepts that Christians in this dispensation of the Church Age will not go through God's wrath which is poured out on the earth in the coming Tribulation. However, the Pre-Wrath view purports that God's wrath is only directed on earth during the last 3 2 years of the seven year Tribulation or 70th Week of Daniel. (Dan. 9:27) The exact timing of the Rapture varies among the Pre-Wrath advocates from the middle of the seven years to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.


The Seven Year Tribulation
Daniel's 70th Week

Rapture Second Coming
7 years
Begin 3 ½ years 3 ½ years End
|_____________________________________________________________|
Seals Trumpets Bowls
Rev. 6:17-8:60 Rev. 8:7-9:21 Rev. 16:1-21
Rev. 11:15-19

The biblical view of the Pre-Tribulationalists is that the whole of the seven years, called the Tribulation, Daniel's 70th Week, or the Time of Jacob's trouble, is a period of God pouring out His wrath. God will do this in a series of three judgments upon the earth. The Pre-Wrath view is based on the accretion that the Bible does not teach that the pouring out of God's wrath occurs during the whole seven years of the Tribulation. Their view is that the out pouring of God's wrath only occurs sometime after or toward the middle of the first three and a half years.

However, the Book of Revelation teaches the judgments or wrath of God on earth begin at the start of the seven years of Tribulation with the Seal Judgments (Rev. 6:17, 8:1-60) , followed by the Trumpets Judgments (Rev. 8:7-921, 11:15-19) and subsequent and final Bowl (Vial) Judgments (Rev. 16:1-21). As each judgment is released upon the earth they grow in intensity and increasing more devastating. The last 3 2 years of the seven years of the Tribulation will be the worse period and is referred to as the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21).


FLAWS IN THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE VIEW

There are many flaws within the Pre-wrath view. One of its major flaws is that it teaches that the Seal Judgments are the wrath of Satan and the Antichrist, and not the judgment or wrath of God. It is their position that Matthew 24:22 is a reference to the "Church" being Raptured thus removing them from the earth and ending the persecution of the Antichrist and Satan.


"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:22)

The first problem with this view is the presumption that Matthew 24:22 is referring to Church Age saints. The Pre-Wrath position is that God will Rapture Church Age saints in the middle of the Tribulation before He begins to pour out His wrath on earth. This view ignores the fact that many people, Jews and Gentiles, will be saved on the earth during the seven year Tribulation. God's purpose in bringing the seven year Tribulation on earth is to fulfill His promises to Israel and purge the earth prior to His setting up the Millennial Kingdom. God will be once again working with the Jews and the Nation of Israel. Matthew 24:20 specifically states that those who are fleeing the persecution of the Antichrist should pray it will not be on the Sabbath.


"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" (Matthew 24:20)
Christians do not worship on or keep the Sabbath. Exodus 31:17 states that the Sabbath was a special everlasting sign between God and Israel. Clearly, this passage is addressing the Jews who to this day continue to keep the Sabbath. The primary focus of events of the seven year Tribulation is directed towards Israel and the coming promised Kingdom of the Messiah Jesus Christ. Church Age saints are not in view here.

When Jesus began His ministry, the Gospels record that He presenting Himself to Israel as their Messiah, and that the promised kingdom was "at hand." (See Matt. 3:2, 4:17, 10:7; Mark 1:15, Luke 21:31). He was offering them the promised kingdom promised in the Old Testament. However, the Nation of Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah. In 70 AD God allowed Titus, the Roman general to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. Biblical Judaism ceased to exist and the Jews were dispersed throughout the Roman Empire. God's offer of the promised Kingdom was thus postponed. This is a vital truth and must be understood in order to correctly understand what God's plan is for the Tribulation. Many Old Testament prophecies such as Ezekiel 36 predict Israel's regathering into the Promised Land.

Clear evidence that the the seven year Tribulation is God's plan to complete His promise to Israel is seen the prophecies of Daniel. Daniel prophesied that the Messiah would be cut off in the 483rd year (week), but that God's covenant with Israel would be confirmed in the seventh week. Jesus was "cut off" being crucified in the 483rd year as Daniel foretold which leaves seven years of his prophecy unfulfilled. The coming seven Tribulations, or Daniel's 70th Week is the period when God will once again offer the promised Kingdom to Israel again and many Jews will be saved. God will complete His plan; purge the earth and Israel of unbelievers which will usher in the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Christ will be the King of the Jews and of the world and rule from Jerusalem. Christians saved since Pentecost until the Rapture are not in view in this final seven years of the Old Testament dispensation. The Church Age will end before the seven year Tribulation and the last seven years of the Old Testament period will begin until God has completed His purposes for the nation of Israel. The current dispensation of the Church Age will end with the Rapture of all believers, both dead and alive, before God begins to renew His covenant with Israel. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that refers to Church Age saints. Those saved in the Tribulation are a different group of believers.




THE FLAW OF PURPORTING THE FIRST PART
OF THE TRIBULATION IS NOT THE OUT POURING OF GOD'S WRATH.
The another mistake of the Pre-Wrath view is in purporting that the first part of the seven year Tribulation, the Seal Judgments, are not the wrath of God, but the wrath of Satan and the Antichrist. However, the Pre-Wrath view ignores a vital truth clearly stated in Revelation 5:12 and 6:1f. At the beginning of the seven year Tribulation, as Revelation 6:1 states, the wrath of God begins with the opening of the Seal Judgments by Jesus Christ (the Lamb of Rev. 5:12, 6:16).

Revelation 5:1-14 is the prelude to the Tribulation in which Jesus Christ is presented as the Lamb, who is the only worthy One, who has the authority and position to open the seven sealed book. The Pre-Wrath view says that the beginning of the Tribulation is the wrath of man, or of the Antichrist and Satan, and not of God. However, Revelation 5:3 states, "And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." The book that no man could open is the seven sealed book of the wrath of God which He will unfold in the seven year Tribulation. The opening of the book begins the seven year Tribulation. What is about to unfold is plainly not the work of any man, but of the Messiah, the work of "the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David." This event is Almighty God fulfilling His plan for Israel and the world in this final stage before the Millennium.

It is the Lamb, Himself, who opens the first seal (Rev. 6:1) and thus initiates the beginning of the seven years of the Tribulation. Revelation 5:4 says that no man could open the book. Further, Revelation 6:3, states that "he" referring to the Lamb of verse 6:1, and verses 5, 7, 9, and 12, continues in opening each of the subsequent Seal Judgments. Clearly, these are not judgments initiated by man or Antichrist, but by the Worthy Lamb of Chapter 5. It is Jesus Christ who opens each of the seals in the first half of the Tribulation and brings God's wrath on the earth. Yes, it is the Antichrist who persecutes God's people and all peoples on earth, but he does so at the discretion of Jesus Christ. God will be using the Antichrist as the instrument of His wrath. Many times in biblical history God used the enemies of Israel to chasten and judge them. The Antichrist could do nothing unless he was allowed by God to do so. The Pre-Wrath view is fatally flawed in its assumption that it is not God who is pouring His wrath on the earth at the beginning of the Tribulation and though out the seven years and until the three sets of God's judgments are completed. It is Almighty God who is using the Seal Judgments begins His plan to purge the earth of sin. It should be recognized that if the Seal Judgments are the wrath of God, the Pre-Wrath position is refuted.

There can be no mistake the New Testament says in this dispensation of the Church Age, which began at Pentecost (Acts 2) and will continue until the Rapture, believers will not go through wrath of God. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 deals with instruction concerning the end times and verse 19, gives Christians the promise of God, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).



IT IS JESUS CHRIST, THE WORTHY LAMB WHO OPENS EACH OF THE SEAL JUDGMENTS
AND INITIATES THE BEGINING OF POURING OUT OF THE WRATH OF GOD.
As show above, it is Jesus Christ who begins the seven year Tribulation and the outpouring of God's wrath as Revelation 6 reveals. The beginning of God's wrath is in His allowing the Riders of the Four Horsemen to rain their various destructions on the earth. In the beginning it is the Lamb who opens the first seal and unleashes the Antichrist, the first horseman riding a white horse upon the earth. The first rider riding a white horse and wearing a crown is allowed to go forth to conquer the world. This is a picture of the Antichrist who will rise to power on earth as a great political leader and present himself as a savior to the world. He will represent himself as a man of peace in his deceptive strategy. Represented as a "little horn," the Antichrist comes with a crown on his head and as Daniel 7:8, 8:8-12 prophecies and takes control of the world's governments. He comes offering peace but by military and political might, and his actions will bring havoc and death on the earth. The Pre-Wrath advocates say this will be a time of peace on the earth. As Revelation 6:2 states, the Antichrist will be "going forth to conquer and conquering," and this is clearly not a picture of a period of peace. The timing of the events of the Tribulation is clearly presented in the Book of Revelation as beginning in with the initial heavenly events of Chapters 4 and 5. The scene then shifts to the earth beginning with Chapter 6 and the unfolding of the seven Seal Judgments. The peace the Antichrist proclaims is an illusion. As the Seal Judgments are unleashed by the Lord Jesus Christ the earth enters a period of turmoil.

Further it is God, who after the Rapture, stops the present retraining work of the Holy Spirit and allows Satan to go forth bringing destruction on humankind through his control of the Antichrist. In our present dispensation of the Church Age, the Holy Spirit is preventing or restraining Satan from unleashing his destructive wishes on the earth.

Further it is God, who after the Rapture, stops the present retraining work of the Holy Spirit and allows Satan to go forth bringing destruction on humankind through his control of the Antichrist. In our present dispensation of the Church Age, the Holy Spirit is preventing or restraining Satan from unleashing his destructive wishes on the earth.

Paul reveals this in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-15,


"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:7-12)
God's plan is that He will use Satan and the Antichrist to bring His judgment on the earth during the seven year Tribulation. The restraining work of the Holy Spirit, which keeps him in check presently, will end and Satan will be allowed to rein destruction on the earth through the Antichrist. It is God who initiates the destruction on earth by allowing Satan and the Antichrist to work unrestrained. It is God who is now restraining Satan and this clearly shows that is the action of God that allows him to rise to power and thus bring destruction to the earth.

Revelation 6:3-4 states again that "he, Christ, opens the second seal and initiates the second horsemen of red. Once again this is the action of God as power is "given" to this horseman by God to take peace from the earth and allow men to kill one another. 2 Thessalonians 2:6 reveals that the One who is restraining evil today is the Holy Spirit, but when the Antichrist is revealed, the restraining work of the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn. The "son of perdition" referred to as the lawless one and beast will be allowed by God to bring havoc on the earth. Once again it is God who is in full control and carrying out His plan.

This Second Seal Judgment clearly removes peace from the earth by allowing the Antichrist to bring havoc on earth. The Pre-Wrath position is that the first three and a half years of the seven year Tribulation will be a time of peace. Certainly, Revelation 6:4 refutes that false assertion. The third horseman described in Revelation 6:5-6, rides a black horse. He is allowed to bring famine on the earth by Jesus Christ when He opens the third seal judgment.

The third horseman described in Revelation 6:5-6, rides a black horse. He is allowed to bring famine on the earth by Jesus Christ when He opens the third seal judgment.

The forth horseman rides a pale horse and death and hell follows him. Once again the Bible says that Jesus Christ gives the pale horse rider the power to bring a tragic judgment on earth in which a fourth part of the earth is killed. One must note that each of these Seal Judgments are being opened in the first half of the Tribulation and the killing a fourth of the earth with the sword, hunger and death which includes even the animals of the earth cannot be viewed as a time of peace on earth. God is pouring out His wrath on the sinful and unbelieving of the earth. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is God's promise that believers in this dispensation will not go through His wrath, thus the timing of the Rapture must be before these events.

When Christ opens the fifth seal, John sees under the altar the souls of those killed for the word of God which they refused to reject. These believers whom the Antichrist will slay are in the first part of the Tribulation. Like the persecutions of the past and even those going on in the world today, God allows some believers to be killed for the testimony of Jesus Christ. True believers through out history had died rather than deny the word of God. In every persecution, God always reaps a harvest of souls as the testimony of God's children allows men to see the truth of the life changing power of God in salvation. Because of the testimony of these slain saints of God many will be saved. Again, this is clearly the work of God and the Pre-Wrath view is grossly wrong in assuming that what is happening on the earth is the work of men. Yes, the Antichrist and evil men are the ones who perpetrate this evil attack on those saved during the Tribulation, but it is only done as God allows it to happen.


THE PRE-WRATH VIEW MISTAKENLY CONCLUDES THAT
REVELATION 6:9-11IS REFERRING TO CHURCH AGE SAINTS
The Pre-Wrath view purports that Revelation 6:9-11 is a reference to the Rapture. They preclude that these saints of God are Christians, of the present Church Age, who have been resurrected in the Rapture and are now seen in heaven. This is a serious misinterpretation of this passage. First, verse 9, specifically states that all these saints are ones slain for their testimony of the word of God. These saints are said to be under the altar of God and are crying to the Lord to avenge their deaths on them that are on the earth. Verse 11, says they given white robes and a time of rest as they wait for a short season until their fellow servants and brethren would also be murdered, as they were on the earth. What they are waiting for is the Second Coming of the Messiah Jesus Christ when God purges the world of the Antichrist and sinful men.

This event follows the coming of the pale horse rider to earth. Their deaths are the result of the actions of the rider of the Pale horse who brings death and hell on the earth. This is a picture of events after the Tribulation, during the Seal Judgments, and begins when the Antichrist and his evil forces persecuting and killing believers on the earth. It must be noted the passage states all these have been slain and are crying to the Lord for judgment to come on the Antichrist and those that serve him. Absolutely, nothing in this passage can even remotely be understood as referring to believers in the current Church Age who will be raptured before the Tribulation begins. Revelation 6:9-11 is referring to saints who have believed after the Tribulation has begun. These saints are not part of the current dispensation of the Church Age. These are Jews and Gentiles who believed on Jesus Christ after the Rapture and every one in this group were killed for their testimony for Christ. All believers in this present dispensation have not been killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ. Clearly, this is a different group of believers and not those of the present Church Age. If these are all the raptured saints of God, of this age, it would require that all those who are raptured must be slain. Of course this is not the case and once again the Pre-Wrath heresy is refuted by the word of God.

A carefully and scholarly study of the Book of Revelation shows that between Revelation 3:22 and 19:1 there is no mention of Church Age saints. The events between these two references reveal the progression of the seven year Tribulation until it ends with the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Saints of God are mentioned within these Chapters, but each time it is referring to those who believed within the seven years of the Tribulation and were saved by God.

Another point revealed in this passage and overlooked or ignored by the Pre-Wrath position is that all these saints, both in heaven and on the earth are seen as one group. A part of the group is shown as having been slain and are in heaven. The other part of the group is still on earth and waiting to join the slain saints in heaven, by experiencing their eventual deaths as well at the hands of the Antichrist. Thus the Pre-Wrath view has part of believers raptured and part awaiting the rapture? These cannot be Church Age saints. Throughout history many believers have been persecuted and killed for their testimony for Christ. But most believers in this dispensation have died naturally and were not martyred. This passage says that every one of this group of saints were martyred for their testimony for the word of God. This plainly is not a reference to the Rapture of believers of the Church Age.

When Christ opens the sixth seal there comes a great earthquake on the earth, the sun turns black and the moon to red as blood. Accompanying this catastrophe event is the stars in heaven raining down on the earth. God says the heavens will be rolled up as a scroll and every mountain and island moved out of it presence location. This begs a simple question? How does this fit into the Pre-wrath idea that the Seal Judgments are the "wrath of men?!" The scope of this judgment precludes that any man, even the Antichrist from having the power over the earth, sun, moon and stars. This is plainly the work of God in bring His judgment on the earth and sinful men. This is Almighty God unleashing His omnipotence power over nature and the elements. Revelation 6:17 completely dispels any validity to the Pre-wrath view stating: "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" The "great day of his wrath is come," clearly is referring to the events just described. The word "to come" means "as appeared, accompanied, entered or be set." After experiencing these Six Seal Judgments people on earth will be terrified, and thus the answer to the rhetorical question "who will be able to stand," is no man could stand against God's wrath which has just been revealed.


THE PRE-WRATH VIEW FALSELY LEAVES CHURCH
AGE BELIEVERS ON EARTH IN A SPLIT RAPTURE
Another problem of the Pre-Wrath view at noted above is that Revelation 6:9-10 shows that part of these saints are in heaven the rest on earth. If the Pre-Wrath view is correct this would mean believers who were alive at the Rapture and had not been martyred would still be on earth and would have to go through the Sixth Seal Judgment and its devastating events. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly refutes this idea as being false.


THE CONCLUSION - NO PRE-WRATH RAPTURE


Another problem of the Pre-Wrath view at noted above is that Revelation 6:9-10 shows that part of these saints are in heaven the rest on earth. If the Pre-Wrath view is correct this would mean believers who were alive at the Rapture and had not been martyred would still be on earth and would have to go through the Sixth Seal Judgment and its devastating events. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly refutes this idea as being false.
9-18-07

http://www.bible-truth.org/Pre-Wrath.html

Pre-Wrath Problems

There are a number of problems with the "pre-wrath" position, and I won't go into all of them here, but let's start with this: DISOBEDIENCE

Pre-wrath believers willfully disobey the Lord's command to:
(Luke 21:36)
pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass

That's a command, not an optional buffett table item. See, pre-wrath believers cannot pray what the Lord commands them to, because quite simply, they believe that they are going through at least HALF of the things that are going to come to pass. In fact, they think that the Holy Spirit's command to pray for escape is "escapist" somehow it's whimping out. For us who take the Lord's commands seriously and at face value, we are watching TODAY (as commanded), we are praying that we will be counted worthy to ESCAPE ALL (as commanded), pre-wrath believers are not, how could they? It goes against everything they stand on? That's willful disobedience. Instead of standing on the Word of God, they universally stand on the gospel according to Dave Mcpherson, Dave who? They love to quote so called "christian scholars" instead of the Holy Spirit. How much clearer could the bible be:

Rev 4-A door open in heaven
Rev 5-Redeemed/rewarded men in heaven
Rev 6-The wrath of God is poured out

Luke 21:36 talks about ESCAPE FROM ALL these things
Rev 3:10 talks about being kept from the hour of trial

70 weeks are declared for the Jewish people, the church was'nt around for the first 69 weeks, why would we be around for the 70th week?

The purpose of the 70th week is clearly spelled out:

Seventy weeks (70 x 7) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression
to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy

thy people? thy holy city? He was talking to Daniel, a Jew...What's the church's holy city? reconciliation for iniquity? Uhhh, Jesus has that one covered for Christian believers....

You have to be willfully in disobedience to not obey the Lord's command to pray for escape, wake up.....

More Confidence in a Pretribulation Rapture

Let's Look at the book of Revelation:

Rev 2-3, Jesus speaking to the churches
Rev 4, NO MORE MENTION OF THE CHURCH FOR THE REST OF THE BOOK OF REVELATION,

A DOOR OPEN IN HEAVEN, COME UP HITHER.....

Rev 5, REDEEMED MEN IN HEAVEN-And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Redeemed men Heaven? Where did they come from? THE RAPTURE

Rev 6, THE WRATH OF GOD IS POURED OUT

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Gosh, I seem to remember something along the lines of : "even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come" or something like that...If the wrath of God shows up in Reveltion 6, and we are delivered from it, seems to me, sometime BEFORE Rev 6, we leave.......

This is a slam dunk case, based just what we've seen here already, if that were'nt enough, we also have the promises of:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

AND

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

We have the examples of Noah and Lot, who DID NOT have to suffer the punishement of the ungodly, but were taken out from among them before the ungodly were destroyed.

Time is very, very, very short, The Lord is coming, be watching, be ready...
Grace and Peace~D

Pre Tribulation Rapture Confirmation

Yesterday I was spending some time in God's Word and I believe He confirmed to me one more time that the "catching away" of the church will happen very soon, before the tribulation which appears to be imminent. Consider:

Luke 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This verse of scripture is so loaded with pretribulation language, one has to be almost blind not to see it. First, what does it say here: "watch ye at EVERY SEASON" not "start watching at the midpoint of the tribulation" season, or "start watching at the end of the tribulation" season. No, it says EVERY SEASON be watching, that means RIGHT NOW.....Then what does it say? making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass. ESCAPE ALL, ESCAPE ALL, ESCAPE ALL, ESCAPE ALL, escape the first half of the tribulation? NO, ESCAPE ALLLLLLLLL. Those mid and post tribulationists who accuse pretribulation believers of being escapist, should level that charge at the Holy Spirit, He's the one who said "WE SHOULD PRAY FOR ESCAPE" That's not all, the coup de grace is what the Lord showed me yesterday....escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. I often asked the Lord what He meant by "stand before the Son of man." Our verse says two things are going to happen: 1. an escape then 2. standing before Jesus. These two things are linked. So the question is, if we escape somewhere where we will be standing "before the Son of Man" where would that place be? Where is the Son of Man right now? He's at the right hand of the Father IN HEAVEN...the rubbish some have tried to throw at us suggesting that "escape" does'nt mean what it clearly says it means, that somehow we'll still be around slugging it out through the tribulation is hogwash. Standing before the Son of man, also suggests judgement. In this case it ties in perfectly with the vision John had in Revelation 4:4 "And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones: and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting, arrayed in white garments; and on their heads crowns of gold." In Rev 4 we see elders who have already been judged and rewarded as evidenced by the crowns of Gold on their heads.

Here we have another track on this idea in the book of Daniel. Daniel 9:24 says, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place." In this message Gabriel clearly says to Daniel that it is "for your people." Daniel's people were Jews, the nation of Israel. God declared 70 weeks against the nation of Israel. This 70 weeks is literally from the Hebrew of the Old Testament, 70 sevens. In other words 70 times 7 years, or 490 years. 69 times 7 (483) of those years were fulfilled from the end of the Israel's captivity in Babylon to the cutting off of Messiah (crucifixion of Christ), leaving 7 years of judgment left to be fulfilled. Those 7 years are the years of the Tribulation. The point is that these years are to be fulfilled against Israel primarily and the purpose is found in Daniel 9:24. The purpose is "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place."

What mid and post trib believers tell us is that we will be part of the 70th week when we were not a part of the first 69 weeks?? Does'nt make much sense....

Earlier, in Luke 21:34 it says 34 "But take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare"

Hmmm, let's think about this for a second, what did the Lord say would be "overcharging our hearts" at the time of this escape? Surfeiting and drunkenness, or said in another way: overindulgence in food, drink and the cares of this life...Not the antichrist roaming the earth (seal 1) NOPE, not WAR, DEATH of around 2 BILLION PEOPLE from famine war and the wild beasts of the earth (the other seals that open the tribulation) ...NOPE. Gosh, seems to me the events contained in those seals would "overcharge" my heart a little bit if I was around to see them......but "prewrath" and post trib folks don't think those events will trouble them at all!!

The days of Noah and Lot (Matt 24:38, Luke 17)the bible says:

1. Noah entered the ark, THEN the flood came......

38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.

2. in THE DAY THAT LOT WENT OUT from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven

Luke 21:38 Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Time is so very short, wake up people, repent, turn back to your Creator....grace and peace~D

Who Are We to Deserve This?

Having then a great high priest, who hath passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore draw near with boldness unto the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace to help us in time of need.

Think about this for a moment, we are granted access to the throne of the Creator of the Universe.....think about it................How honored would people feel if they were granted access to the president or prime minister of a country? And who are they compared to the Creator of all things? How blessed are we who believe and obey, to have a High Priest like the Son of God, who loves us. It strains the mind to grasp it. Time is short, be watching, be ready-brother D

Faith

The Lord spoke to me this morning about faith. He said that many times when we are facing a decision of choosing A or B, it does'nt matter which one we choose, as long as we base our decision for choosing A or B on faith. The God we serve can transform any situation into one that blesses us. Great is the King we serve!

The Days of Noah

Multitudes feel under no moral obligation to curb their sensual desires, and they become the slaves of lust. Men are living for the pleasures of sense; for this world and this life alone. Extravagance pervades all circles of society. Integrity is sacrificed for luxury and display. They that make haste to be rich pervert justice and oppress the poor, and "slaves and souls of men" are still bought and sold. Fraud and bribery and theft stalk unrebuked in high places and in low. The issues of the press teem with records of murder--crimes so cold-blooded and causeless that it seems as though every instinct of humanity were blotted out. And these atrocities have become of so common occurrence that they hardly elicit a comment or awaken surprise. The spirit of anarchy is permeating all nations, and the outbreaks that from time to time excite the horror of the world are but indications of the pent-up fires of passion and lawlessness that, having once escaped control, will fill the earth with woe and desolation. The picture which Inspiration has given of the antediluvian world represents too truly the condition to which modern society is fast hastening. Even now, in the present century, and in professedly Christian lands, there are crimes daily perpetrated as black and terrible as those for which the old-world sinners were destroyed.
Before the Flood God sent Noah to warn the world, that the people might be led to repentance, and thus escape the threatened destruction. As the time of Christ's second appearing draws near, the Lord sends His servants with a warning to the world to prepare for that great event. Multitudes have been living in transgression of God's law, and now He in mercy calls them to obey its sacred precepts. All who will put away their sins by repentance toward God and faith in Christ are offered pardon. But many feel that it requires too great a sacrifice to put away sin. Because their life does not harmonize with the pure principles of God's moral government, they reject His warnings and deny the authority of His law.

Of the vast population of the earth before the Flood, only eight souls believed and obeyed God's word through Noah. For a hundred and twenty years the preacher of righteousness warned the world of the coming destruction, but his message was rejected and despised. So it will be now. Before the Lawgiver shall come to punish the disobedient, transgressors are warned to repent, and return to their allegiance; but with the majority these warnings will be in vain. Says the apostle Peter, "There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and

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saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning." 2 Peter 3:3, 4. Do we not hear these very words repeated, not merely by the openly ungodly, but by many who occupy the pulpits of our land? "There is no cause for alarm," they cry. "Before Christ shall come, all the world is to be converted, and righteousness is to reign for a thousand years. Peace, peace! all things continue as they were from the beginning. Let none be disturbed by the exciting message of these alarmists." But this doctrine of the millennium does not harmonize with the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Jesus asked the significant question, "When the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8. And, as we have seen, He declares that the state of the world will be as in the days of Noah. Paul warns us that we may look for wickedness to increase as the end draws near: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." 1 Timothy 4:1. The apostle says that "in the last days perilous times shall come." 2 Timothy 3:1. And he gives a startling list of sins that will be found among those who have a form of godliness.
As the time of their probation was closing, the antediluvians gave themselves up to exciting amusements and festivities. Those who possessed influence and power were bent on keeping the minds of the people engrossed with mirth and pleasure, lest any should be impressed by the last solemn warning. Do we not see the same repeated in our day? While God's servants are giving the message that the end of all things is at hand, the world is absorbed in amusements and pleasure seeking. There is a constant round of excitement that causes indifference to God and prevents the people from being impressed by the truths which alone can save them from the coming destruction.

In Noah's day philosophers declared that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water; so now there are men of science who endeavor to show that the world cannot be destroyed by fire--that this would be inconsistent with the laws of nature. But the God of nature, the Maker and Controller of her laws, can use the works of His hands to serve His own purpose.

When great and wise men had proved to their satisfaction that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water, when

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the fears of the people were quieted, when all regarded Noah's prophecy as a delusion, and looked upon him as a fanatic--then it was that God's time had come. "The fountains of the great deep" were "broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened," and the scoffers were overwhelmed in the waters of the Flood. With all their boasted philosophy, men found too late that their wisdom was foolishness, that the Lawgiver is greater than the laws of nature, and that Omnipotence is at no loss for means to accomplish His purposes. "As it was in the days of Noah," "even thus shall it be in the days when the Son of man is revealed." Luke 17:26, 30. "The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10. When the reasoning of philosophy has banished the fear of God's judgments; when religious teachers are pointing forward to long ages of peace and prosperity, and the world are absorbed in their rounds of business and pleasure, planting and building, feasting and merrymaking, rejecting God's warnings and mocking His messengers--then it is that sudden destruction cometh upon them, and they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/pp/pp7.html

Be Ready, Be Watching

The stake in the heart of Mid and Post tribulation rapture thinking is the idea of watching and readiness for the Lord's return. The Lord clearly and unequivocally tells us to be ready and watching TODAY. Not tomorrow, not next week, not mid tribulation, not post tribulation, TODAY. The time to be ready for the Lord's return is today, this very minute. Who guarantees any of us another minute on this planet? Who knows if the Lord is going to show up in another minute? Those who are not ready when the Lord shows up, don't get into the kingdom. We don't have tomorrow to be ready, only today. We must be faithful servants today, we must be obedient today, today is the day of salvation.

Matt 24:39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

They knew not.....why? No lamp (the word of God), No oil (the Holy Spirit) so they are blind. Just having a lamp isn't good enough either, you must have oil, you must be filled with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of your inheritance...

Matt 25:8
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are going out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Peradventure there will not be enough for us and you: go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went away to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.

While they went away to buy, the Lord came.....they were'nt ready when He came. I find what the Lord said to those who were not ready very sobering:

Matt25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Get your life in order today, repent today, pray today-for all the brothers, for your family, for yourself, time is short...Grace and peace~D

The Works of God

John 6:27-29
27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed.
28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So the work of God is to believe in Jesus.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You wonder why so many confess to be christians, yet so many are in full blown apostacy? Why is that? Answer...they don't obey, they don't really want the truth, they love lies, therefore there is no Holy Spirit within them...which means also, they are not saved. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption.

Romans 2:8
but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation

Hebrews 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;

No obedience=no salvation ^^^^

Time is short, it's time to take a hard look at ourselves and know that we know that we know that we are "in Christ"

Only a few are going to make it, don't you want to be one of them????

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

What Does the Lord Require of Us?

Micah 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God?


James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Matt 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Romans 14:12
So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

1 John 4:16-18
16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Lessons From the Churches of Revelation-The Good

Here are the things the Lord commended the churches of Revelation for:

1. No tolerance for evil men/false prophets: ‘I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary.

2. Hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans: Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

3. Patiently enduring: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

4. More patient enduring: ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

5. Love, Faith, Service, Perseverance and Growth (think parable of the talents here): I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.

6. Unsoiled Garments (untainted by the world): But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

7. Keeping His Word and His Name: I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

8. More Perseverance: Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Lessons From the Churches of Revelation-The Bad

Here are the things the Lord had against the churches in the book of Revelation:

1. They left their first love: But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

2. Holding to the teaching of Balaam: But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.

3. Holding to the teaching of the Nicolaitans: 15 ‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 ‘Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

4. Tolerating Jezebel: But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 ‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 ‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 ‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

5. Being dead, but thinking they are alive: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 ‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 ‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

6. Being lukewarm: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

VIP Seating

Over the past few days I've been in Las Vegas with my wife for a short vacation. That place is a cesspool, but that's not the point I want to make today. We were traveling through one of the casino's looking for a place to sit down and watch some of the college bowl games. We arrived at the sports area of one casino and we noticed that most of the seats were taken. The only seats that were not taken had little signs on them that said "VIP only." Obviously that was not us, so we had to keep looking for a place to watch the game. Here's what the Lord impressed upon me later. In people's hearts they have all these "seats." The Lord wants ALL of the seats in your heart. Some people have "VIP reserved" signs on some of their seats though. People reserve seating in their hearts for money, power, fame, sex, and/or any of many other worldly things. As the Lord survey's this scene in their hearts, looking at all those "VIP" signs they reserve for sin and the world, do you think He is pleased? Grace and peace~brother D