Thursday, April 16, 2009

Addressing Opposition to the Pre-Flood, Pre-fire and Brimstone, Pre-tribulation Escape/Rapture of the Church

I want to say this up front to the mid-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib folks. This debate will never be settled, which is why I stopped debating. I present my position, I read other people's positions. One man plants, another waters but only The Lord makes things grow...We can't all be right, the points of view on the escape/rapture are mutually exclusive. Why don't we skip over the escape/rapture altogether, just not talk about it? Because contrary to the mid-trib, pre-wrath (satanic), post-trib positions, we were ordered to pray for this escape. It's not an escape from 25%, or 50% or 75% of whats about to happen, its an escape from ALL thats about to happen-Christ's words there-not mine. The Lord was an "escapist" before I was. Those who condemn the escape from all, do not condemn me or my doctrine but the Lord himself. You have eyes, you can read, what does Luke 21:36 say? And are you doing what it says to do? Simple question..yes or no, we don't need a lengthy dissertation on why you refuse to do what the Lord commanded you to do, just admit that you refuse to do what you were commanded to do because your doctrine conflicts with God's word. It really is that simple. What happens when the people you have peddled your doctrine to end up not being found worthy of the escape because they no longer have the faith for it? What happens when some of them die in the time of Jacob's trouble, is their blood on your hands? Do you really believe that the word of the Lord is in error? Jesus says there is an escape from all, and you say there isn't, whose side should men stand on? Is your doctrine not theft if it steals people's faith and hope in an event that is absolutely 100% surely coming? I can guarantee you there will be an escape from all coming, because the word of God clearly states there is an escape from all coming. Noah escaped 100% of the flood-true or false? Lot escaped 100% of the fire and brimstone-true or false? The cases of Noah and Lot are DIRECTLY APPLICABLE to the revealing of the Son of man-true or false? An escape from all is coming-true or false? No trick questions, no need to read your book or marvin rosenthal's book or anyone else's book to answer these simple, straightforward questions. If the pre-flood,pre-fire and brimstone, escape all position is incorrect, what does it matter? We are looking for the Lord's return EVERYDAY, you are not. Again, who is the obedient servant here, who is the rebellious one? Will the people who believe in an escape from all stop believing the bible is true when the anti-christ shows up, 2 witnesses start calling down fire and plagues from heaven, the abomination of desolation is setup in the temple etc etc. How ridiculous is that? To not look for the Lord's return each and every day is foolish. What happens when he shows up and you are not watching?

Luke 12
... 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

Are you or are you not directly disobeying ^^^that command along with the command to pray for escape?

Mark 13:33
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

But I guess you don't need to watch because your doctrine is more enlightened than the word of God?

For everyone else....

Since I just recently figured out how to create a spot on this page that I can easily access and update posts, I'm going to add this one down to the "LINKS" on the right side of the page. I will update this page as time goes on with why I believe the mid-trib,pre-wrath, post-trib objections are not only off-base, but actually lies, short- evil. It will take awhile to complete because as you know, the agents of the enemy have been at work a long, long time. If you want to just skip down to the place where I explain why the pre-wrath teaching is satanic, go to point number 12.

In no particular order:

1. The day of the Lord/rapture cannot occur because Elijah has to show up first:

“Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord arrives. His preaching will turn the hearts of fathers to their children, and the hearts of children to their fathers. Otherwise I will come and strike the land with a curse.” Malachi 4:5-6

This scripture above is used to "prove" that the Lord's appearance is not imminent, yet Jesus himself said this about John the Baptist:

“And if you are willing to accept what I say, he is Elijah, the one the prophets said would come.” Matthew 11:14 (NLT)

Here's the fact of the matter: The bible says that Elijah would come before the day of the Lord. Jesus himself said that John the baptist is Elijah. Does that qualify for Elijah coming before the day of the Lord? It absolutely DOES.

Yes, I know the two witnesses to come during the tribulation are said to be Moses and Elijah, but that is speculation/guesswork. What is not speculation are the words that have come from the Lord's own mouth, which are: “And if you are willing to accept what I say, he is Elijah, the one the prophets said would come.”

^^this will be debated along with every other point in the bible until the end of time as we know it. Jesus Christ came in the flesh as the savior of mankind and here we stand 2,000 years later and the Jews today still don't believe it...

Here's more:

(speaking of John)

Luke 1:17 "It is he who will go as a forerunner before
... He is the one who will go before the Lord with the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom

Then we have:

“This was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders sent priests and Temple assistants from Jerusalem to ask John, ‘Who are you?’ He came right out and said, ‘I am not the Messiah.’ ‘Well then, who are you?’ they asked. ‘Are you Elijah?’ ‘No,’ he replied.” John 1:19-21 (NLT)

So let's think here: The Lord himself said "if you can accept this, he IS Elijah," The bible says he came in the spirit and power of Elijah, but when the Jews asked John if he was Elijah, John said "no, I'm not."

Now, lets pretend we are rocket scientists for a second.....If your name is Dave, and I ask you "hey are you Mike?" What would you say? Uhhh "no I'm not?"

2. The day of the Lord and escape/rapture cannot be imminent because first the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood.

... The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day .

It is well established by scientists as well as every other human from middle school on up, that solar eclipses produce dark suns, and lunar eclipses produce "blood moons." Do you have any idea how many solar and lunar eclipses have already occurred since Jesus walked this earth? I just skimmed the NASA website and there have been approximately NINE solar eclipses since 2006 and from 2006-2015 there will be eleven lunar eclipses with 3 of them occuring just this past year and a half.

Since science and history both tell us there have been so many black suns and blood moons that we can't recall all of them, which one is it that "counts" before the day of the Lord? Do men think they will look through a telescope and see some kind of handwriting inscribed on the moon saying "HEY THIS IS THE BLOOD MOON THAT COUNTS FOR PRE-WRATH TEACHERS?"

There have been many already, and there will be many more in the future, so what exactly do blood moons and black suns prove to us about Jesus' return not being imminent?

This argument proves nothing except for the fact that the people who use it disregard every solar and lunar eclipse that has occurred since Jesus walked the earth.

3. The pre-tribulation view is new.

Really? The idea that the coming of the Son of man would be like the days of Noah and Lot is new? The command to pray that we may be counted worthy to escape all is new? You can label this escape however you want (pre-trib or otherwise) to but it does'nt change the facts of the event in the slightest. An escape from all and the stories of Noah and Lot are foundational to what is being criticized here, and these are plainly stated in the bible. There's nothing new about the gospels of Matthew or luke or the book of Revelation which shows redeemed rewarded men in heaven in Rev 4-5 as well as the promise in Rev 3 that the church would be kept from the hour of trial coming on the entire earth. So this argument that the pre-trib view is new holds no water either. If this is an argument about the label attached to an event, who cares? The event (escape from all) is what matters, not what men call it.

4. Luke 21:36 isn't talking about the rapture or the tribulation?

Typically when I hear this one, the reason is just "because" with no evidence shown because simply put, there's no evidence to give. When we are told to pray to be counted worthy to escape all, we are told that after a lengthy discussion of what the "all" is we are told to pray to escape. What are the things included in "escape all" that we are told to pray to escape?

This is what preceeds the command to pray for the escape:
Luke 21: 9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This ^^ we are told to pray to escape...It's the entire time of "Jacob's trouble" also known as the tribulation period.

5. The Restrainer being removed can't happen as "pre-trib" teachers say it will

I somewhat agree with this. Within the pre-trib ranks there are all kinds of different views on how things will happen while maintaining a pre-trib overall viewpoint. How can a Spirit who is omni-present, that is, present everywhere all the time, go someplace where he is not? How will people be saved on earth if the Holy Spirit is not here? Think of what's about to happen as a reverse pentecost. The apostles were told to wait for the Spirit to be poured out on them at the beginning of the church. The Holy Spirit was around long before pentecost, what was He doing, how did he operate before pentecost? The same way He will/can operate after the church is removed from this world.

6. Who will witness to the people on earth if all the believers are removed?

This question shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what's going to happen at the escape. Most people who call themselves a christian today are "going" to church, "playing" church and in general doing everything except BEING the church. The church is not something we "go to" its something WE ARE. At the time of the escape, there will be millions of people who played around with christianity their entire lives without ever "being" the church. The will know the bible, they will be people who have been "churched" (excuse me while I gag....), and some of them will come to their senses when they see that they have been lied to by a babylonian system of churchianty for their entire lives. There will be angels flying through the heavens proclaiming the gospel, there will be 144,000 sealed Jews who will be proclaiming the gospel. There will be PLENTY of witnesses around after the escape.

7. God has some purpose for all of us during the tribulation so we cannot be removed otherwise God's purpose would be thwarted.

Umm, that idea comes straight from the mind of some man. The bible tells us what the purpose of the tribulation is:

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

^^^the church is not mentioned there....^^that (from the bible, not men) is the purpose of the tribulation.

8. The pre-trib rapture means there will be two "second comings" of Christ.

Another idea from the teachings and minds of men. Who said there would be any "second coming?" Men gave Jesus' return to the earth that title, not God. Jesus can come back to earth, or the clouds, or wherever he wants to, as many times as he wants to. Show me any legal restrictions in the bible for the number of times Jesus is allowed to show up here on earth......

9. The sign of the son of man will be in the sky "immediately after the tribulation" of those days?

A) Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky... (see also Mark 13:24 and Luke 21:25.)
B) Acts 2:20 'The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come. (see also Joel 2:31)
C) Rev 6:12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth [made] of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

Since when is the "sign of the Son of man" = escape? Do you read anything in the books of thessalonians or corinthians (the rapture texts) that says anything about the "sign of the son of man" in the sky being equated to the rapture/escape? More of the assumptions of men, not the word of God. I don't see question?

10. Again....The "elect" are gathered (by angels) AFTER the tribulation of those days? This is the escape/rapture?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Now stay with me here....Saying that the event above is the rapture is more speculation and conjecture from the minds of men. There is a significant timing problem with their argument:

How will the known, factual rapture occur?: 1 Corinthians 15:52 ... in a moment, faster than an eye can blink, at the sound of the last trumpet.

Ok, and how will the speculative, not the rapture event happen in Matt 24, and Mark 13? Jesus will send angels, then the angels will go out and gather.....does that sound like an event that will happen "faster than an eye can blink?" Sorry, the argument does'nt wash

Men assume that because two or more events share mechanics or similar wording, they are in fact the same event? Yes, they do assume.....does that make it fact or truth? NO

The timing problem is not the only issue with this "angelic gathering" being used as the escape. The supporters of this theory have another huge problem with their theory, namely that Some israelites will go into captivity and exile AGAIN during the tribulation period, then have to be regathered:

<< Zechariah 14 >>King James Bible

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

(NASB)For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. question?

11. explain where the fifth seal martyrs (Rev 6:9-11) come from? Gosh, that's a tough one! How about .....seals 1-4? AFTER the escape..and just before the first seal (on the same day), many will understand from their presence on earth after the escape that they have been living a lie, they have been "foolish virgins" Matt 25, and will start "being the church" instead of "going to church" They will pay for that decision with their lives.

12. 1 Thess 5:9, "For God has not destined us for wrath..."

Eze 6:11 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Smite with thy hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas! because of all the evil abominations of the house of Israel; for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence. 12 He that is far off shall die of the pestilence; and he that is near shall fall by the sword; and he that remaineth and is besieged shall die by the famine: thus will I accomplish my wrath upon them

The "pre-wrath" teacher takes all kinds of liberties with the word of God. They are so liberal with it that they have even made up their own words in the name of God, like the "wrath of Satan" because if they did'nt make stuff up their entire argument would fall apart. The bible clearly says in Ez 6 that the sword, famine and pestilence are WRATH. Whose wrath? Our God's wrath.

The pre-wrath teacher treads extremely dangerous ground. In fact, I think there is an argument that their teaching commits the only unpardonable sin:

Pre-wrath teaching is not just error, its EVIL/satanic. Why? Do you know what the only unpardonable sin is? Ascribing the works of God to the devil.

Mark 3 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

The pre-wrath teacher ascribes the work of God (Jesus is the only one found worthy to open the seals of Rev. 6) and the pre-wrath teacher tells you that the seals Jesus opens (by the power of the Holy Spirit) are "satan's wrath"...the work of Satan! In effect, the pre-wrath teacher is telling you that Jesus is in league with the devil, EXACTLY like the jews accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of beelzebub...ITS THE SAME THING.

If you preach and teach the satanic "pre-wrath" doctrine, I suggest you check yourself and your doctrine carefully.